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The programming talent myth

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By Jake Edge
April 28, 2015
PyCon 2015

Jacob Kaplan-Moss is known for his work on Django but, as he would describe in his PyCon 2015 keynote, many think he had more to do with its creation than he actually did. While his talk ranged quite a bit, the theme covered something that software development organizations—and open source projects—may be grappling with: a myth about developer performance and how it impacts the industry. It was a thought-provoking talk that was frequently punctuated by applause; these are the kinds of issues that the Python community tries to confront head on, so the talk was aimed well.

Some background

Kaplan-Moss began by noting that he is a contributor to Django and the director of security at Heroku. He is a longtime PyCon attendee (eleven years) as well as a regular speaker at the conference (ten years). The Python community means "more to me than anything in tech" and giving a keynote at PyCon is "the highlight of my career", he said.

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

His first PyCon talk was in 2005 about a utility for bridging Python and AppleScript. At the same PyCon, which was held in Washington, DC, Adrian Holovaty gave a tech demo of some tools that were being used to build web sites at the newspaper in Lawrence, Kansas where they both worked. Those tools are what became Django. Now Django is ten years old and is used around the world, he said. He has watched PyCon go from 300 people to nearly 3000 and the community explode with new people and growing diversity. So "I really mean it" that the keynote is "the apex of my professional career".

On the other hand, though, his main emotion there on the stage was insecurity. There is a voice that is telling him he does not belong on the stage with the others he has shared it with; that he doesn't deserve the success he has had. There is "a little hater" (in the words of Jay Smooth from a video clip that Kaplan-Moss played) in the back of his head telling him these things.

The "really insidious thing" about the little hater is that a little bit of what he says is right. That is not a "humble brag" or false modesty on his part, he said, and there are things he has done that he is "incredibly proud of". In fact, there are things that he has done that do make him feel qualified to be on that stage, but they are probably not the things that the audience is thinking about.

Many probably think he is giving a keynote because he is the "inventor of Django", but that isn't at all the case. Those who know a bit more about how Django came to be might think of him as the "co-creator of Django", but even that overstates things significantly. He was actually hired to work at the newspaper a year after Holovaty and Simon Willison invented and co-created Django. "Really, I'm the guy who got hired to work on the thing a year after it was already made", he said with a grin.

People assume that he is somehow responsible for the creation of Django because he is an "incredible programmer"; that he is a "rock star" or a "ninja" programmer—or "whatever it is that recruiters are calling it these days". People believe that he is successful because of his programming skill. But that simply isn't true: "I am, at best, an average programmer", he said (with a slide that read "Hi, I'm Jacob, and I'm a mediocre programmer.").

Running

He switched gears a bit, putting up a picture of ultramarathon runner Ann Trason, who is the most accomplished competitor in the history of that sport. Ultramarathons are runs that are longer than the 26 miles of a marathon; typically they are run on trails requiring stream crossings and the hardest races can take multiple days of continuous running to complete. Distances for races are generally 50-160km. Trason has set multiple course records that still stand 10 or 20 years later. No one has come within an hour of some of her records, he said. It is hard to overstate how dominant and how exceptional Trason has been in that sport. He was talking about that because he recently finished his first 50km race, which means he can call himself an ultra runner too.

He is, however, not anywhere close to Trason's league, but he does get to wear the same label. He is a mediocre runner, finishing 535th out of around 1000. There are lots of numbers that can be used to quantify his performance: his pace, the distance and elevation change of the course, and so on. There is a site that calculates a "runner's score" that estimates how close a runner's time will be to that of the winner of the race. He is around 68% (which overstates things, he said), while Trason is 98.58% ("in other words, she usually wins").

That gap is not particularly surprising. If you plot a histogram of times in a race (or runner's scores, etc.), you get a familiar curve: the bell curve or the normal distribution. Most people are average, while there are a few that are either exceptionally good or bad in "the skinny ends of the curve". Almost every skill that we know how to measure ends up showing a distribution that looks like that curve.

Mediocrity

When he said that he was a mediocre programmer, some in the audience probably didn't believe him, he said. Why is that? The vast majority of those in the audience have never actually worked with Kaplan-Moss, so why would they assume his coding ability is exceptional? In the absence of any other data, people should assume that he is solidly in the middle of the curve. Part of the problem there is the lack of a way to even measure coding ability. "We are infants in figuring out how to measure our ability to produce software", he said. What are our metrics? Lines of code—what does that measure? Story points? "What even is a story point?", he wondered.

Programmers like to think they work in a field that is logical and analytical, but the truth is that there is no way to even talk about programming ability in a systematic way. When humans don't have any data, they make up stories, but those stories are simplistic and stereotyped. So, we say that people "suck at programming" or that they "rock at programming", without leaving any room for those in between. Everyone is either an amazing programmer or "a worthless use of a seat".

But that would mean that programming skill is somehow distributed on a U-shaped curve. Most people are at one end or the other, which doesn't make much sense. Presumably, people learn throughout their careers, so how would they go from absolutely terrible to wonderful without traversing the middle ground? Since there are only two narratives possible, that is why most people would place him in the "amazing programmer" bucket. He is associated with Django, which makes the crappy programmer label unlikely, so people naturally choose the other.

But, if you could measure programming ability somehow, its curve would look like the normal distribution. Most people are average at most things. This is not Lake Wobegon, most people are not above average, he said.

A dangerous myth

This belief that programming ability fits into a bi-modal distribution (i.e. U-shaped) is both "dangerous and a myth". This myth sets up a world where you can only program if you are a rock star or a ninja. It is actively harmful in that is keeping people from learning programming, driving people out of programming, and it is preventing "most of the growth and the improvement we'd like to see", he said to a big round of applause.

The US Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates that by 2020 there will be a 1.5 million programming job gap, which means there will be that many jobs unfilled. That's in five years. The EU has published similar numbers, 1.2 million in 2018—three years. That means we need to be doing something to get more people into our industry. But the myth is a filter that prevents people from even considering programming as a career. The myth is aided by the belief that programming is an innate talent that people are born with. Those who do not know how to write software and who believe in the myth fall into a trap: thinking that their age has reached "30 or 20 or 15" (or even 40 or 60, he added later) and, because they haven't written any code yet, that means that they never can or will.

If the only options are to be amazing or terrible, it leads people to believe they must be passionate about their career, that they must think about programming every waking moment of their life. If they take their eye off the ball even for a minute, they will slide right from amazing to terrible again. That leads people to be working crazy hours at work, to be constantly studying programming topics on their own time, and so on.

But we don't believe these things about other activities. Over half a million people ran a marathon last year—did all of them have an innate talent for running? Kaplan-Moss doubts that they did; he didn't. Most of those people ran their marathon rather badly, but a tiny fraction ran theirs very fast. To be a runner, though, all it takes is a pair of shoes. We don't even believe that you have to particularly like running to be a runner.

Someone asked him what the best part of running the 50km race was; "finishing" was his answer. Running a marathon is difficult; it takes lots of training and requires commitment and focus. Is writing software—writing Python—harder than running a marathon? "Why aren't there half a million people here today?", he asked. We tell ourselves different stories about one skill, coding, than we do for another, running.

He then gave an example of what this narrative can do to people. At the University of Kansas's geographic information system (GIS) day a few years ago, he sat in on a "fantastic presentation" about predicting seasonal floods on the Kansas River. The student had used tools that should be familiar to many of those at PyCon: Amazon Web Services, Linux, PostgreSQL, Python, Django, GeoDjango, and so on. Kaplan-Moss was hiring at the time, and she (the student) had just written thousands of lines of Python, so he asked if she wanted to interview for his company. Her response was that she couldn't do that, because she "was not really a programmer". That came from a woman who had just invented her own distributed GIS data processing pipeline, he said—but she's not really a programmer. That's because "programming is something you are in this myth, not something you do".

Just skills to be learned

The truth is that programming isn't a passion or a talent, it is just a bunch of skills that can be learned. Programming isn't even one thing, though he had been talking about it as if it were; it requires all sorts of skills and coding is just a small part of that. Things like design, communication, writing, and debugging are needed. Also, "we need to have at least one person who understands Unicode", he said to laughter.

[Jacob Kaplan-Moss]

There are multiple independent skills, but we tend to assume that someone is the minimum of their skill set. Sure, you might be a good designer, speak and write well, and be a great project manager, but you don't know how a linked list works, so "get out of the building". Like any other skill, you can program professionally, occasionally, or as a hobby, as a part-time job or a full-time job. You can program badly, program well, or, most likely, be an average programmer.

If we embrace this idea that "it's cool to be okay at these skills"—that being average is fine—it will make programming less intimidating for newcomers. If the bar for success is set "at okay, rather than exceptional", the bar seems a lot easier to clear for those new to the community. Even once we get people into the community, the talent myth can haunt them—it can actively drive people out of tech.

The tech industry is rife with sexism, racism, homophobia, and discrimination. It is a multi-faceted problem, and there isn't a single cause, but the talent myth is part of the problem. In our industry, we recast the talent myth as "the myth of the brilliant asshole", he said. This is the "10x programmer" who is so good at his job that people have to work with him even though his behavior is toxic. In reality, given the normal distribution, it's likely that these people aren't actually exceptional, but even if you grant that they are, how many developers does a 10x programmer have to drive away before it is a wash?

At that point, he added the famous picture of Linus Torvalds flipping off NVIDIA under the "brilliant asshole" label in his slide. While some might argue the context, it certainly struck a chord for the people at the keynote as it was met with laughter and applause.

"Real programmers"

Kaplan-Moss then asked what a 10x programmer looked like and put up a series of pictures of "Mark Zuckerberg". The first was actually the actor who played Zuckerberg in The Social Network movie, while the second was the Saturday Night Live cast member who satirized the actor in the movie. The third actually was Zuckerberg. All three were young white men, which is the archetype of a "real programmer", he said.

When we see someone who does not look like one of those three men, we assume they are not a real programmer, he said. Almost all of the women he knows in the industry have a story about someone assuming they aren't a programmer. He talked to multiple women attending PyCon 2015 who were asked which guy they are there with—the only reason they would come is because their partner, the man, is the programmer. "If you're a dude, has anyone ever asked you that?"

On the other hand, when he got up on stage, he did look like those guys. "So you probably assumed I was a real programmer." These sorts of assumptions contribute to the attrition of marginalized people in tech, he said.

He presented some numbers from the National Center for Women & Information Technology (NCWIT). Half of women with Computer Science degrees are not using those degrees as part of their employment. 40% of women leave technology within ten years, while only 17% of men do. Over half of women leave the industry at the mid-point of their careers.

There are certainly other causes, he said, and wasn't implying that there is only one root cause. But imagine how frustrating it must be to be a woman with a decade of experience and have someone assume that she doesn't know what she is talking about. It is going to take a serious effort to overcome the diversity problem. We are never going to get there if we can't come up with a more nuanced way to think about what a programmer is—and what programming skills really are.

There are all kinds of runners—sprinters, distance runners, marathoners, etc.—of all shapes, sizes, genders, ages, and races. All of them have different metrics for success and all are capable of being successful by their own metrics. "We have got to find such a nuanced, shaded, interesting way of thinking about skill in tech," he said.

A conversation with Lynn Root at PyCon a number of years ago was the genesis for his talk. Root is a programmer, a founder of the San Francisco chapter of PyLadies, a Python Software Foundation board member, and has "been in and around this community for a while". PyLadies was fairly new at the time of the conversation and he was excited about the energy, excitement, people, and skills that the group was bringing to the table. To Root he said "it's so great to see all of these bad-ass women programmers". She agreed, but noted: "We'll know we've been really successful when there are a whole bunch of average women programmers". That too, was met with big applause.

The talent myth sets an "impossibly high bar for entry", he said, and the fact that any of us are here at all "is kind of shocking given this myth". It needs to be dismantled and a community that recognizes that "average is actually pretty awesome" should be be built in its place. He is a mediocre programmer and he invited others to join him; "together we can do our jobs perfectly adequately". Attendees gave Kaplan-Moss a standing ovation for the keynote.

After that, he took questions, but he requested that people actually ask questions, rather than to use the microphone as a way to "share their opinion or to pontificate on what the speaker has said". He said that he is personally quite interested to hear those opinions, but that it should be done in email or on Twitter, because sitting in the audience during these "non-questions" leads to "frustration and anger". Based on the applause for that, he is not the only one to be annoyed by that behavior.

Several questioners also admitted to mediocrity in programming. Questions ranged from whether the security field is different with regard to the talent myth (short answer, it is "even worse", which makes it that much harder for people to enter that field), myths around the depth vs. breadth of knowledge (it is part of the myth that people have to "impossibly know everything about everything", there are roles for both specialists and generalists), and how to get mediocre programmers to get the courage to apply for these jobs ("I wish I knew the answer to that").

Perhaps the question he spent the most time answering was how to get these ideas into the heads of the recruiters, venture capitalists, and others who are actually determining who gets brought into the community. It is a difficult question to answer, he said. Part of it has to do with the "crazy 60-hour weeks" that have come to be expected. Companies need to respect the idea of a work-life balance, with work weeks of 40 or 35 hours, and it is up to those who are in prominent positions to push their companies to recognize that. People should be able to do their jobs well, adequately, that is, and be commended for that. The same goes for working a healthy schedule—it should be commended as well. With a 1.5 million job gap looming, companies that don't do so may find themselves unable to fill the positions that they have.

[A YouTube video of the keynote is available.]
Index entries for this article
ConferencePyCon/2015


(Log in to post comments)

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 28, 2015 23:33 UTC (Tue) by jzb (editor, #7867) [Link]

Wow, I wish I'd been there for this. Looking forward to watching the video - thanks for the coverage, great piece!

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 3:05 UTC (Wed) by misc (guest, #73730) [Link]

For the sake of completeness, the video is already uploaded on youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hIJdFxYlEKE

And I can't help notice that comments were disabled on this video (not surprising, and I can't blame the uploader for doing so)

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 6:24 UTC (Wed) by marcH (subscriber, #57642) [Link]

> But that would mean that programming skill is somehow distributed on a U-shaped curve. Most people are at one end or the other, which doesn't make much sense.

It's a U-shaped curve... with two bell curves at each end. Programming is an art, which means it requires knowledge and discipline (like for any job), but also some level of passion and creativity (unlike for repetitive jobs). Most of us have seen the ~10x productivity gap at the office between creative people versus people just doing everything by the book. For instance, programmers with some level of passion and creativity continuously question what they are doing and how they are doing it, then refine and reinvent their own tools. Just that as a start is plenty enough to explain an 10x productivity increase.

This gap is not even specific to programming; it's the same for any job where creativity can make some difference.

Sure there is a myth of the rock star programmer (people love having heroes), but it's not like every programmer is average either. Like in many other jobs there is a big gap between employees who care and those who don't. I think the gap is wider in programming because new tools can be created in the matter of days.

PS: - passionate != 60+ hours of work per week
- passionate != impossible to manage/work with

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 16:20 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

+1 cannot agree more. I guess it depends how mature the business is, in the fast-moving world of small-sized companies, I would rank creativity above all, and the ability to continuously learn. No one can simply have the required knowledge for *any* worthwhile task; of course as basics one needs to know algebra, statistics, C and one sane language (Python, Rust, ...). Rest of talent should be acquired during and while working on the designated task. But I agree, without passion, it is harder to learn as one gets older.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:12 UTC (Thu) by interalia (subscriber, #26615) [Link]

> It's a U-shaped curve... with two bell curves at each end. Programming is an art

Whatever this curve is measuring (talent, code quality, all-round ability etc.) it seems pretty unlikely that people aren't distributed in a bell curve. Of course people who are 3 standard deviations from the median will be insanely better/worse - isn't that the equivalent of your U curve?

I really doubt most people are actually incredibly good or incredibly bad. A typical person might produce code that is "OK" (good/bad in parts) for a problem of average complexity. It seems strange that people are talking about how good rock star programmers are but offering no reason why their usefulness disproves the assertion it's a bell curve.

It's notable that many people think of programming as art (I agree). But maybe it also means we judge other people's code (or our own) like an art or film critic i.e. savagely. Just like programming, there are so many facets by which films can be judged - direction, acting, story, lighting, music, editing etc. I don't think films are on a U-shaped curve either.

This seems the same idea that YouTube videos which no longer have ratings, because people give 1 stars or 5. That doesn't make mathematical sense, some videos must reasonably be 3 stars. Judging programmers is the same kind of judging towards the outlier, everything is awesome or terrible. I have definitely been guilty of this.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:21 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

The talent level of people may be distributed by a normal distribution, the value created by the people might not. I did see people creating negative value (management insisted on hiring from a specific company, the coders they've sent were so lousy that we practically had to assign someone to fix their code, so in the end we were having less resources), also did see people creating as much value as other 10. The recruiters are obviously looking for the later type.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 14:22 UTC (Thu) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

The problem with this is that it is very difficult for a recruiter to figure out whether somebody will be an asset or a liability in the concrete position that they try to fill. For example, a super-productive “rock star” programmer with an attitude could be an asset from the POV that they may get lots of code done, but also a liability because of the caustic effects they may have on the rest of the team/company/client relations. In the end it might be better to find someone who is less of a “rock star” but better able to function as part of the team.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 14:46 UTC (Thu) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

Interestingly the "rock star" programmers I've met were usually friendly and easy to work with. I've felt more unpleasantness from manager-types (who should have people skills) than from "rock stars". Actually the stereotype (great programmer is an asshole) seems over hyped to me (or it was just me being fortunate with colleagues).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 0:36 UTC (Fri) by sjj (subscriber, #2020) [Link]

I despise the whole "rock star" label. The whole metaphor is wrong - it makes young smart guys (always guys) want to be Bonos when they should be trying to be Ringo Starrs (the person who makes the team gell, works well with both prima donnas and roadies).

Somebody who is very smart and truly accomplished is usually easier to work with than the guy in the next cube who *thinks* he is a rock star. I've had the bad luck of meeting a bunch of these (mostly sysadmins). They play the asshole genius stereotype to the max to gullible HR and management types. They constantly proclaim their superiority to anybody within hearing distance. I've actually seen a guy I worked with describe himself as a Rock Star in his own LinkedIn profile. Yeah right.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 8:28 UTC (Fri) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

I've actually seen a guy I worked with describe himself as a Rock Star in his own LinkedIn profile. Yeah right.

There is an iron rule in hacker circles that says you don't get to unilaterally declare yourself a “hacker” – it is an honour that others bestow on you. The same would presumably apply to labels like “rock star”.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 1:24 UTC (Sat) by allesfresser (guest, #216) [Link]

That seems like the rule that whoever wants to be president probably shouldn't be.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 0:58 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

The problem with this is that it is very difficult for a recruiter to figure out whether somebody will be an asset or a liability in the concrete position that they try to fill.

It seems to me that the grandparent's comment about management telling them to hire programmers from a specific company only to discover they were adding nothing might even be an example of this. I doubt management wanted people from that company because they were intent on wasting money; they presumably expected those programmers to be great. Instead, they failed to produce.

It seems to me that this is a potential advantage for people hiring in FOSS. In that case, you may well be hiring somebody not based on their general reputation but for their specific expertise with exactly what you want them to work on. It seems like it would take a lot of guesswork out of hiring.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 11:48 UTC (Sat) by pbonzini (subscriber, #60935) [Link]

> I really doubt most people are actually incredibly good or incredibly bad.

I think it's not too rare to see bimodal curves. For example I think it's pretty much common to break people into "can't draw" and "can draw". There are few people who can't draw a stick figure and few Picassos, but if I had to guess the distribution of "how good can people draw?" I would say it's bimodal (made of two, somewhat overlapping, normal curves).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 10:05 UTC (Sun) by niner (subscriber, #26151) [Link]

In an attempt to bring some facts to the discussion I did a 5 minute Google search on the topic. It seems like drawing like so many occupations is mostly a matter of practice:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2134898/My...

This is not the only source I found claiming this. From personal experience, I've always believed, that I simply cannot draw, so I've never really tried it either. Until I started doing free hand UI mockups on paper and discovered, that they actually look quite ok. So I wonder, what I could do with a little more practice.

On programming, I really think most programmers are closer to average than to one of the extremes. And team members where I wasn't sure if they would become good programmers have become quite good.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 0:36 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

From the music world, "the typical child prodigy has done more practice by the age of eleven, than the average person does in a lifetime".

And, don't know the link to the paper, but it looked at students at The Royal School of Music or The Academy of Music (we have two such schools in London). They looked at all the students, and found that their skill levels bore very little correlation with the amount of practice they were doing. BUT.

Once they looked at when the students started playing, and how hard they'd practised over their entire playing "career", there was a very strong correlation with how good they were.

(For the record, practice was defined not as just playing, but as "working at improving something you couldn't do (well)". And sadly, for the second rankers, they also came to the following conclusion - "to convert a second-ranker into a front-ranker, they need to do an extra hour's practice a day for five years. But they're already practising on the verge of burn-out, any more will tip them over the edge".)

So if you want one of those "rock-star" programmers, you need to find someone who's been programming for fun since childhood ...

Cheers,
Wol

The programming talent myth

Posted May 21, 2015 11:51 UTC (Thu) by thumperward (guest, #34368) [Link]

I've been programming for fun since childhood. I certainly would not claim to be a 10x programmer. (One of the reasons that I chose system administration over development as a career.)

How much of this can be attributed to my childhood dabblings having been in BASIC, as with most Britons of my age, is up for debate of course. :)

The talk's premise is extremely sound. All this evidence-free "U-shaped curve with two bell curves at each end" nonsense from the comments simply reinforces that people are likewise mostly mediocre at commenting on things on the Internet.

The programming talent myth

Posted Jun 1, 2015 14:45 UTC (Mon) by fuhchee (guest, #40059) [Link]

"All this evidence-free "U-shaped curve with two bell curves at each end" ..."

Clearly there is no broad population-wise (or even profession-wide) analysis of programming aptitude, so the commenters were opining based on their personal experiences. The speaker's assertion of normal distribution-ness was just as underwhelming with evidentiary background.

The programming talent myth

Posted Oct 17, 2019 12:22 UTC (Thu) by TristanTrim (guest, #135022) [Link]

The uncanny valley!... Sorry... I bet you wouldn't see much bimodality if you got people to draw geometric forms or maybe architecture, but if you got people to draw faces and the human form, then it would appear, the reason being that the skill required before a face stops looking weird and wrong is quite high (though probably lower than many people think). The same could be true of programming... If you don't know how to get every part of your program just right it's behavior will be weird and wrong. (Though sometimes interesting and inspirational too)
That sharp divided between correct and broken would also help discourage people from learning, as you said, worsening the effect. That might even be the primary factor in the two hump thing, if it is a thing.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 7:11 UTC (Wed) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]

I suspect one of the reasons contributing to the talent myth is that the talent is a transient thing. Skills are very specific. When by a chance skills match the environment/task perfectly, one can easily be 10 times more productive. Change the task or environment, and the same skills translate into performance that is no meaningfully better than average. However people remember that brilliant work and will assume that the person got a talent that applies in each situation.

In [1] Google's VP of people operations described that they could not find any correlation between student grades and job performance after a year after finishing the education. For this reason Google stopped asking about grades during interviews. Similarly they stopped asking those puzzle-like questions to test how "smart" are people. The talent of answering to those is also uncorrelated with how good people at the job unless the job entirely consists of quickly answering quiz questions.

[1] - http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/20/business/in-head-huntin...

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 2:57 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

The talent involved is picking up new skills quickly.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 19:29 UTC (Fri) by raven667 (subscriber, #5198) [Link]

Right but that talent in practice on the job seemed to be uncorrelated with the ability of an interviewee to answer a pop quiz, whether the interviewee did well or poorly on those kinds of questions didn't predict whether they were good at their jobs so they are useless for screening.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 19:46 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

I'm not sure it is. I'm very slow at picking up arbitrary new skills: I tend to need a lot of time and a lot of sleep, and am quite likely to forget the lot. What I *can* do is almost never forget anything in an area I *have* picked up (and am interested in), and rapidly correlate anything I do manage to learn with what I know (and if I manage to do that, I won't forget it). More generally, most adults are bad at picking up arbitrary new skills quickly -- if you want *that*, find a young child, they're information sponges.

I think the talent needed is picking up skills *related to your existing experience base* quickly, not arbitrary new skills. This is, of course, a talent of wide general utility, and is in general why older people aren't worse at everything than younger ones despite the loss of cognitive reserve -- for many years the increased experience base more than makes up for it.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 10, 2015 8:32 UTC (Sun) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

I bow before superior analysis.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:22 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

I'd like to see a debate between this guy and his supporters and the Netflix "we fire everyone who's not above average" people.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 19:26 UTC (Mon) by kaidenshi (guest, #102354) [Link]

The thing I find interesting about Netflix's hard line is, what determines "above average"? If they have, say, 2000 employees, then they fire anyone average or below, in theory they just fired 1001 of their employees. Now out of those 999 left, they suddenly have a new average, and they would have to fire another 500 to meet their new quota.

I realize it's not that simple, but I think it's more of a hiring tactic than anything else. Anyone with the slightest hint of self-doubt won't even bother applying to Netflix or responding to their recruiters, and they end up with only Alpha-types who can both demonstrate their talent and feel good about their abilities. In some ways that's a good thing, but it also seems to me that they end up weeding out more empathetic potential employees. A large company like Netflix might be able to get by with a bunch of "brogrammer" types for a while, but eventually they will need the fresh perspective of someone who doesn't see the world the same way they all do. Unfortunately, that personality type doesn't fit in with the "we're all rock stars and you all suck!" attitude they put forth.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 23:42 UTC (Mon) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

Good sodding grief... you are trying to derive profound sociological conclusions from an obvious employee motivation specialist bullshit line, pardon the redundance. Of the "your employer trusts and values you; the pride for belonging to Our Insanely Great Team(tm) should serve as a compensation" variety. Sane reaction is to roll your eyes (when out of eye contact with said BS artist) and ignore it, same as when given an equally worthless boilerplate tokens of appreciation. And above everything else, do not let it affect your judgement regarding your worth, or that of your coworkers and employers. In any direction.

The theory is obvious; I don't know if it's taught to MBA in that form, but basically it goes like that

* employee's degree of satisfaction affects its productivity and should be considered as an investment.
* optimizing return on investment is a good practice.
* replacing the costly investment with cheaper alternative that gives an equivalent output is a good practice.
* telling the mark that it is special greatly increases its gullibility; any successful scammer knows that.
* once upon a time an engraved watch used to serve as demonstration that coworkers and management remember and value the recipient. These days a plastic paperweight with inscription on it demonstrates that a script ran from crontab over HR database has put the recipient's name and address into monthly (or quarterly) bulk order form. However, it still counts as a token of appreciation, and that's what matters.
* attaching "... because you work here" to "you are special" (see above) improves loyalty and you can't overdo that - the people who will roll their eyes at over-the-top bullshit won't take you serious anyway. And it demonstrates your worth to upper management.

No matter where you go, these pests are inevitable. Anywhere, including the job of burger-flipper in McDogfood, janitor in railroad station WCs, etc. As well as really wonderful jobs in great places. Learn to recognize the noise for what it is and filter it out; it's nothing personal, they are just taught that way...

The programming talent myth

Posted May 13, 2015 13:18 UTC (Wed) by kaidenshi (guest, #102354) [Link]

"Good sodding grief... you are trying to derive profound sociological conclusions from an obvious employee motivation specialist bullshit line"

I thought it was obvious that I saw it for the BS it was, when I said "I think it's more of a hiring tactic than anything else". Nothing profound about it, and no need to be so hostile about it.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 13, 2015 13:36 UTC (Wed) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

I sincerely doubt that it affects the distribution of personality traits in the people they are hiring (or has any effect on the reality, for that matter). As for hostility... IMO that kind of PR folks are waste of what could've been functional human beings, but that's (chronic) disappointment, not hostility...

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:23 UTC (Wed) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Also, you don't need shoes.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 18:01 UTC (Wed) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

But you should have a towel.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:37 UTC (Wed) by ibukanov (subscriber, #3942) [Link]

I suppose this is some cultural reference. Could you hint it? Is it related to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy as the comment above implies?

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 20:20 UTC (Wed) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

Just an article reference: "to be a runner, though, all it takes is a pair of shoes."

Shoes may be unnecessary but you will need a computer.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 22:41 UTC (Wed) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Cue the Disney classic "The Computer Who Wore Tennis Shoes". But until ~1950, computers mostly wore pumps.

It's not true that all you need to be a marathoner is shoes. Far more important, and limiting, is the luxury of spare time. After that, disposable calories. Shoes rank third.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 2:34 UTC (Thu) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

> Far more important, and limiting, is the luxury of spare time.

I commute several days a week by running. It saves a shit-tonne of money, and substitutes sitting on a bus or in traffic for something a great deal healthier. So no, it's not really a luxury-of-spare-time thing.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 11:23 UTC (Fri) by l0b0 (guest, #80670) [Link]

In that case it's the luxury of having a shower at work, which I've only ever seen at the EvilRichCorp I worked for a while.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 9:24 UTC (Sat) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Or, you could just run home.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 20:14 UTC (Sat) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

Plenty of blue-collar jobs have showers, from personal experience.

You're really, really reaching for why it's all too hard.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 12:16 UTC (Sat) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

It probably also means you aren't afraid of getting cancer through running along traffic-heavy highways.

It so happens that for some of us the distance is non-trivial.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 15:42 UTC (Sat) by anselm (subscriber, #2796) [Link]

It probably also means you aren't afraid of getting cancer through running along traffic-heavy highways.

Who knows? Even if the shortest car route is a motorway, a reasonable running route might go along a forest track.

It so happens that for some of us the distance is non-trivial.

That's a more reasonable objection. I work from home most of the time but from here to the office would be a 30-km run, one way, including crossing a major river. Doing it by bike might be a more reasonable proposition.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 16:22 UTC (Sat) by Sesse (subscriber, #53779) [Link]

Exercise is a net positive even if there's pollution. (Source: http://ehp.niehs.nih.gov/1408698/)

Obviously it's better to run in non-polluted areas, but you shouldn't be afraid of exercising just because your best alternative is in a city.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 16:36 UTC (Sat) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

> also means you aren't afraid of getting cancer through running along traffic-heavy highways

Isn't driving along traffic-heavy highways just as bad?

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 23:10 UTC (Sun) by giraffedata (guest, #1954) [Link]

Isn't driving along traffic-heavy highways just as bad?

You breathe considerably less air during a 5K drive than during a 5K run.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 10:01 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

If you're sitting in your car, stuck tail-pipe to air intakes in jams, you may be exposed to much more pollution than the runner taking the trails, footpaths and pavement though. Or the cyclist, who sits much higher than car occupants.

For peak time commuting, both the runner and the cyclist may well spend much less time in the the congested jams than 4+ wheel vehicle occupants.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 0:42 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

I remember a very recent story that said 90% of pollution suffered by car occupants occurred in the 2-3% of time they spent stuck at traffic lights.

So a cyclist or runner will avoid most of it.

Cheers,
Wol

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 20:16 UTC (Sat) by rodgerd (guest, #58896) [Link]

> It probably also means you aren't afraid of getting cancer through running along traffic-heavy highways.

I can't help you if you're a Daily Mail reader who's afraid everything will give you cancer.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:46 UTC (Thu) by roc (subscriber, #30627) [Link]

Just that it's possible to run marathons barefoot.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 8:37 UTC (Wed) by tialaramex (subscriber, #21167) [Link]

> Also, "we need to have at least one person who understands Unicode", he said to laughter.

I am not laughing.

Just to give me some sense, how many people here /actually/ thought Jacob Kaplan-Moss was a "rock star" or "ninja" programmer before this speech ? My impression of Django was much like for Tapestry, or any of dozens of other such frameworks. They're better than nothing, but not always much better. That's some pretty faint praise.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 11:45 UTC (Wed) by ballombe (subscriber, #9523) [Link]

Maybe Django is the perfect tool for the "average" programmer.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 15:27 UTC (Wed) by epa (subscriber, #39769) [Link]

My impression of Django was much like for Tapestry, or any of dozens of other such frameworks. They're better than nothing, but not always much better.
Please try getting a completely random programmer from a job site and asking them to make a framework. The odds are fairly small you will get a result that's better than nothing.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 16:06 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

juxtaposition of talent behind django and Linux is amusing however.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:53 UTC (Wed) by reubenhwk (guest, #75803) [Link]

Most people's understanding of unicode is something like this...
char ascii[100];
unsigned short unicode[100];
for (i = 0; i < 100; ++i) {
    unicode[i] = ascii[i];
}

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 10:44 UTC (Wed) by etienne (guest, #25256) [Link]

> young white men, which is the archetype of a "real programmer"

In the Free Software world where you should prove yourself writing software and/or patches and/or code reviews hidden behind an E-mail address, and where your Users recognize you first by your E-mail address, I wonder how you can get whether the owner of that E-mail is a man/woman, black/yellow/pink skin, old/young, tall/small, human/cat.

Obviously some people may want either positive / negative discrimination to boost them / give a reason for their failure, for instance by adding their photo or their facebook friend request link, but that is not related to how good they are in reading/designing/writing software.

It is different in the private/industry world where the first thing is an interview to see how good you look, and where potential employer won't even check what that E-mail you gave them is related to...

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:08 UTC (Wed) by alan (guest, #4018) [Link]

One could hide ones essential nature and identity behind an email address, but as you work more closely with others you come to know the person behind the address. Free/Open software developers are also known to have personal websites where they talk about their work and passions.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 14:08 UTC (Wed) by louie (guest, #3285) [Link]

The culture of the project also has an impact even if you can completely obscure your identity (which I agree is usually impossible anyway). Kate Heddleston's PyCon talk and associated blog posts are excellent on this - they're targeted at a corporate environment, but it is all applicable to true community projects as well.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 10:31 UTC (Mon) by robbe (guest, #16131) [Link]

> I wonder how you can get whether the owner of that E-mail is [...]

Do you want to cast doubt on whether Free Software developers are >80% white males, because these traits are hard to measure for mere online personalities? Just use sampling. Conference group photos would need to be be massively biased -- maybe women, blacks, and cats just don't want to go to conferences?

If your point was why this would happen online, there are ways to keep one or more minorities out of a group without actively selecting at the entrance. Making frequent slurs against jews and blacks in your country club will be almost as effective in keeping them out as checking would-be members' ancestry.

Finally, we were talking about image, which is formed by what is perceived publicly. While there are a lot of female rock stars, not that many female star programmers have entered the public mind, and when they did, it was usually as an outlier.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 0:46 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

In order to work on a Free Software project you need to interact. Even in an email, there are plenty of subtle clues as to your gender, colour, nationality etc etc.

We may not be able to consciously recognise those clues, but I bet within a few emails you will have a good idea of the sort of person you're dealing with, and gender is one of factors that stands out pretty quickly.

Cheers,
Wol

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 2:51 UTC (Sat) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

Really? Go ahead, guess my nationality, whatever that means. _Tons_ of l-k postings to play with. For bonus points, show me an evidence of any bias in the same postings, be it conscious or not.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 12:01 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

I have to disagree about the programming talent "myth". I'm not sure it's U-shaped, but I've hired quite a few developers in my time and the difference in productivity and code quality among them was astounding, even though on paper they all had roughly similar qualifications.

As someone else mentioned, software development is grounded in science and engineering, but at the higher level there's a huge component of art. It's at this higher level that a very few programmers distinguish themselves. Think of Fabrice Bellard, for example, or John Ousterhout who have produced amazing works of great beauty and inventiveness.

In addition to having the engineering concepts down cold and having a good creative vision, a really good programmer has to be incredibly disciplined. This is extremely hard for new programmers who've never worked on anything larger than a term project before.

Of course, that doesn't mean to say so-called "average" programmer can't produce excellent work. The PostgreSQL project, for example, is amazingly high quality and all the programmers seem excellent... it doesn't appear to be driven by one rock-star programmer. (As far as I know... maybe I'm wrong...)

In this case, someone must have provided excellent guidance and mentoring.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:09 UTC (Wed) by alan (guest, #4018) [Link]

The PostgreSQL has multiple rock-star quality developers. They just don't have rock-star sized ego.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:42 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

The PostgreSQL has multiple rock-star quality developers. They just don't have rock-star sized ego.

Hmm, ok, cool. I guess that strengthens my assertion that there are programmers who are much better than average.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 20:40 UTC (Wed) by ssmith32 (subscriber, #72404) [Link]

But the fact that you thought the postgres developers weren't whatever you feel is a rock-star developer, when they have developed a far more useful, stable, and long-lived product than Qemu and Tcl (and definitely better code than some of the early version of qemu - which I had to modify and work with at time. Not bad, but not beautiful ;) )..... doesn't help the credibility of your evaluations. You seem to be evaluating based on personality and some nebulous "vision" of what the code should be, not a useful finished product. I could be wrong, but the evidence currently points the other direction.

(yeah, Qemu is neat (and useful at times), and had some clever tricks for targeting, and an interesting and challenging project, but it's not nearly as polished as postgres).

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:30 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

You seem to be evaluating based on personality and some nebulous "vision" of what the code should be, not a useful finished product.

Not at all. Tcl is an amazingly beautiful and well-written piece of software. Try comparing it's C internals with (bleh) Perl's or (yuuuckkk) PHP's.

As for Bellard, I wasn't specifically thinking only of QEMU, but some of his other amazing hacks like TCC, the JavaScript PC emulator and his record-setting (for the time) computation of Pi.

PostgreSQL does happen to be a more useful or at least more widely-used project than the others, but I think their quality is just as high.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 10:16 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

> his record-setting (for the time) computation of Pi.

…which was also an IOCCC submission.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 11:47 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Yes, so what? You really have to be an excellent programmer to enter the IOCCC because you have to thoroughly understand the nuances of good software development so that you can outrageously do the exact opposite. Just like you have to be a really good writer to write a successful parody.

I think you'll find that the list of IOCCC winners contains a lot of excellent programmers.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 12:19 UTC (Thu) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

It wasn't meant to be detrimental to the achievement; it's even more impressive that it was a world record setter *as well as* being IOCCC-quality (heh, now there's a metric I'd like to see for codebases).

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 6:44 UTC (Thu) by eru (subscriber, #2753) [Link]

...far more useful, stable, and long-lived product than Qemu ...

Isn't qemu now effectively immortalized as part of the standard virtualization solution for Linux?

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 18:42 UTC (Wed) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

you also don't need every programmer to be a 'rock star'.

A real 'rock star' programmer/designer/architect multiplies the effectiveness of the people around them. They design good stuff (the part that is the art), that can then be implemented (and tests written, and maintained, etc) by others who are not as good at the art.

a programmer who is extremely productive when writing their own code, who can't communicate with others to spread the work and knowledge is a short-term asset to the company/project, but a long-term liability because they won't be there forever.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 1:32 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

In my book, a programmer who cannot communicate effectively with others is by definition not a "rock star" programmer.

Communicating your intent to a computer is the easy part. Communicating your software design to other people is far more demanding.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:29 UTC (Thu) by ms (subscriber, #41272) [Link]

> Communicating your intent to a computer is the easy part. Communicating your software design to other people is far more demanding.

Completely agree. I have zero patience for programmers who claim tests are a sufficient form of documentation. Lots of people seem to think this. Like a test can express overall architecture design.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 1:36 UTC (Tue) by speedster1 (guest, #8143) [Link]

> I have zero patience for programmers who claim tests are a sufficient form of documentation. Lots of people seem to think this. Like a test can express overall architecture design.

That sounds like a good challenge for an anti-obfuscation contest: solve X non-trivial problem and write a test that clearly expresses the overall design :)

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 21:04 UTC (Tue) by bronson (subscriber, #4806) [Link]

How about tests that are also documentation?

http://www.relishapp.com/rspec/rspec-expectations/v/2-14/...

(personally, I'm against it just because the writing style tends to be awful... but, I've got to admit, the documentation is always up to date and always correct... that's very rare.)

60-hour work week

Posted Apr 29, 2015 12:03 UTC (Wed) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Here, I agree completely. In my company, our developers work 40-hour weeks. We don't publish release dates because they're basically arbitrary and simply pressure developers. When our release is done, it's released, and not before, and I do not expect my employees to sacrifice their private lives or health for the sake of some arbitrary deadline.

It's not a bell curve...

Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:33 UTC (Wed) by helge.bahmann (subscriber, #56804) [Link]

... but probably rather something resembling a Poisson distribution, and any full-time professional in the field is definitely already in the tail"ish" portion of that. Does not matter terribly much for the argument, but talking about averages for this tail is a bit dubious already.

The article is right that anyones position in this distribution should be regarded as something meaningless, while actual accomplishments matter, and that the correlation between the former and the latter may be weak. I believe that the talent myth is at least partially attributable to an (unconscious?) narcism that has it exactly backwards: "accomplishments" are secondary and viewed as a means to demonstrating "awesomeness" (rather than viewing "ability" as a means to "accomplish something"). This may be more poisonous than the talent myth itself.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 13:34 UTC (Wed) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

This "myth" is a bunch of things, some valid. 60-hour work weeks amount to bad management, for instance. But the "shortage" of programmers, as of engineers, announced every couple of years (for many decades past) is purely class warfare. Offer what programming is worth, and rock-star programmers will come pouring in. Attempts to drive up enrollments are transparent price-gouging.

Enough women enroll already, along with too many white men who will not be good enough. Send them home, and the numbers will equalize. The skills needed for good programmers don't correlate with skin color, sex, attractiveness, or personality. We get all kinds. Filter out privilege, and talent surfaces. You will end up with fewer graduates, but can put more attention into readying them, and they will do better work.

I know personally a programmer who produced, on a crash six-month project, as much code as 500 other programmers in the group. He is humble because he knows another who produces several times as fast as he does (he says ten), and wears out two keyboards a year, although at a cost to his health.

The reason we need the best programmers coding is that bad code has negative value. Mix good and bad code and you end up with zero value; maybe positive if you're lucky, but just as likely negative. How many programming projects are abandoned every year by otherwise well-run companies?

Mediocre, and worse, managers can cause much more harm than bad programmers, but it's harder to root them out. When there's rooting being done, it's as likely as not the bad managers making the decisions. If you're a good manager, your hands are full protecting your programmers from the products of privilege all around you.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 14:58 UTC (Wed) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

(where's the frigging +1 button?)
Ooops... caught thinking aloud!

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:00 UTC (Thu) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

TBH I'm not sure what you mean by class warfare in this context (which classes?) but to say there is no shortage is silly. I'm also not sure what you mean by "offering what programming is worth" since programmers seem to be paid at least twice the average salary so it's not like it's badly paid or anything.

But mostly we don't need loads of rock-star programmers. We need the recognition in the general population that programming is something that almost anyone can do. The shortage in programming jobs is not in rock-star programmers, but in mediocre programmers.

As for the 60 hours work week thing, I think that's a uniquely American problem, for which the solution is: stop doing it. In most of the rest of the world it's illegal to work that many hours so there's the legislative solution, but Americans being Americans that won't happen.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 21:39 UTC (Thu) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

In America, instead, it's illegal to punish employers for demanding 60-hour workweeks -- but only employers of programmers.

Class warfare? Simple. Programming is labor with very high product-value. Artificially inflate the supply of programmers, whether by inflated enrollment or H1B immigration, and costs (i.e. salaries) plummet. Most people who graduate with tech degrees don't find work doing it, although chemists and biologists come off worst.

High salaries? Compared to what? The degree of skill required, and value extracted (not to say "produced") is in the ballpark with other professions, law and medicine. Periodically we hear warnings about upcoming grave shortages of physicians, but there is no H1B program flooding us with doctors and dentists. Credit the AMA and ADA where due. Programmers,instead, are singled out as "exempt" from labor protections and tax benefits.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 20:01 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Periodically we hear warnings about upcoming grave shortages of physicians, but there is no H1B program flooding us with doctors and dentists.
That's because doctors and dentists don't greatly benefit from clustering the way tech does, so there is no Silicon Valley for doctors and dentists acting as a giant sucking magnet pulling talented people towards the US (and both Cambridges).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 0:48 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Furthermore... In the U.S., today, membership in the "middle class" starts, in the cheapest housing areas, at something around $120k/yr. "Average programmer salaries" ("exempt", recall, from the right to overtime for those 60-hour weeks demanded of us), however well you think they compare to the average wage, clock in, as you note, well below that.

The overwhelming majority of programmers cannot even be said to be middle-class. What is called low enrollment of women in software training reflects a very pragmatic recognition of realistic prospects. The anomaly is weirdly high enrollment by white males, pursuing a myth slightly different from the one suggested.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 2:10 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

So…with the poverty line in the US around $24k, what is the $100k-wide band up to your middle class number? Wiki says that $30k-$65k is lower middle class and up to around $125k is upper middle class (for a household). Those numbers seem much more reasonable to me. Not everyone lives in ridiculously priced areas like NYC or the SF Bay area (where $120k might actually net you the same as something like $80k in a more reasonable location after taking out expected rent and such).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 4:01 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

They used to call that "working class" or, less politely, wage slavery. Wikipedia is evidently not a great resource for economic insight. (Who wrote that stuff?) Consider your average programmer's salary less house, insurance, and car payments. The lucky ones might inherit a parent's house. Used cars are a better value nowadays, fortunately.

The US used to have a wide swath of middle class voters. They have been largely wiped out, very deliberately, by policies instituted in the '70s, supported by crushingly effective propaganda methods invented by Edward Bernays in the '20s. In their place are people who think they're middle-class because their parents really were, and because politicians and advertisers tell them they are. But most are one medical emergency away from homelessness.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 7:45 UTC (Fri) by kleptog (subscriber, #1183) [Link]

> Consider your average programmer's salary less house, insurance, and car payments.

Can you give some figures for your area for these things because it's not making sense for me. For example around here we're you could buy (what's considered here) a large house for $1340 p/m, insurance would be about $250 p/m (for everything, including health) and a car lease perhaps $500 p/m, so a household earning 60k should have at least 15k income left even after the 30% income tax. (Numbers converted from Euros to US$ for easier comparison).

I'm guessing it's the health insurance which is expensive, but it'd be nice if you could provide some actual prices.

> But most are one medical emergency away from homelessness.

Protip: universal healthcare solves this problem. Really.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 11:43 UTC (Fri) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

*Would* solve it. But the insurance lobby in the US is too powerful ever to allow any such thing, and the propaganda machine is too effective. The US is what is called a "managed population" now, routinely voting against its own interests in favor of the extreme rich. It will only get worse now that corporate money is "protected speech".

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 12:28 UTC (Sat) by deepfire (guest, #26138) [Link]

This sounds pretty desperate, and I'm not sure I can see a solution.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 18:30 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

In many of the 'hip' large metro areas, $1300/month may get you a single room in someone else's house, or a tiny, survival apartment.

Car insurance in many of these same places can easily be a couple hundred a month (assuming a new car and full coverage)

Health insurance is frequently less than car insurance for a single person (family health insurance paid by one person is more)

All this adds up and drives the prices of everything else up as well. Groceries are noticeably more expensive in many of these areas.

The mega tech companies deciding that they really don't like remote workers, and want everyone to live and work in a few massive complexes helps drive this. Not only are their employees having to pay these high costs, but everyone else in the area does as well (including all the startups)

> Protip: universal healthcare solves this problem. Really.

yeah right. many people who have lived under both systems disagree with you.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 20:29 UTC (Fri) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

And in this area, $1300 can get you an apartment with a covered, heated garage and other niceties (like an elevator for moving in). And if you can afford the down payment, that's about what a mortgage on a decent house is (with good credit). My first apartment was a 3-room attic for ~$500/month (after electricity and gas). Car insurance is ~$100/month (for a 2013; the 1989 was ~$60/month mainly due to not having things like ABS, airbags, and other safety features), I don't really look at what gets taken out of the paycheck for healthcare, so I can't comment on that. Your numbers are *way* higher than is really necessary in many areas. Again, not everyone lives in NYC or the Bay area and using it as a baseline for what is "acceptable" across the entire US is a little absurd.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 20:44 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

I wasn't even giving Bay area prices. I agree that the cost of living varies greatly around the country and around the world. Everyone needs to be aware of this and not think that their local situation reflects how things are for others (be it the person in Silicon Valley where $120K/year is marginal or the person living somewhere where $60K/year is comfortable)

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 21:42 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

On living under universal healthcare, my experience of NHS Scotland is that it is absolutely amazing. Makes me want to stay in Scotland, despite the rain. I'd be scared now to live somewhere without it.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 7, 2015 2:23 UTC (Thu) by lordsutch (guest, #53) [Link]

"In the U.S., today, membership in the "middle class" starts, in the cheapest housing areas, at something around $120k/yr."

Nonsense. I'm a salaried professional and make half that and live, comfortably, in an area with moderately cheap (but by no means the cheapest) cost of living. And most of the professionals I know in my area make $50-80k.

Unless your definition of "middle class" involves owning a mansion and/or taking annual four-week vacations in Europe, flying first class and staying in luxury hotels, I think your perspective is a wee bit off.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 10, 2015 8:30 UTC (Sun) by ncm (guest, #165) [Link]

Self deception is never a pretty sight.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 11, 2015 17:27 UTC (Mon) by zlynx (guest, #2285) [Link]

There is no self deception here. You're both using different definitions of "middle class."

Define your terms.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 12, 2015 17:36 UTC (Tue) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

It also depends heavily on the state.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 17:43 UTC (Wed) by HIGHGuY (subscriber, #62277) [Link]

I'd say nobody needs bad programmers, but average and rock-star programmers need each other to be productive.

Average programmers need rock-star programmers because the latter can take their code to the proverbial next level with feedback, suggestions, etc.
The rock-star programmer needs average programmers to get anything done in a sufficient volume.

In either group, egoless collaboration is the best way of achieving this symbiosis.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 17:47 UTC (Wed) by tpo (subscriber, #25713) [Link]

> Questions ranged from [...] myths around the depth vs. breadth of knowledge (it is part of the myth that people have to "impossibly know everything about everything", there are roles for both specialists and generalists), and how to get mediocre programmers to get the courage to apply for these jobs ("I wish I knew the answer to that").

One part of the answer to these two questions is - I feel - the strong tendency of recruiters to coerce applicants into lying.

I often see job offerings the likes of:

candidate must have 10 years of ReactJS experience

or:

candidate is excited to be on the standby 24*7*52, and work incessantly until the work is finished for NextBigStartupHypeCompany

or:

candidate is an expert assembler coder on all major CPU architectures, a 3D specialist, has a certificate in space flight and has been head of at least two western states

I don't doubt there *might* be someone being able to fulfill such requirements, but I think such profiles favor dishonesty in every sense (among others also the "awesome elite programmers"). And it also is promoting burnout, because it sets expectations way too high.

But maybe I'm blowing this all up because I feel that I'm none special and am defensive because it's very hard to get one of these contracts.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 29, 2015 19:59 UTC (Wed) by reubenhwk (guest, #75803) [Link]

Average programmers write complex code.
Good programmers write simple code.
Talented programmers make difficult tasks easy.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:24 UTC (Thu) by dgm (subscriber, #49227) [Link]

I would say: Talented programmers can tell when simple or complex code is required.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 15, 2015 10:49 UTC (Fri) by vinster (guest, #88738) [Link]

It takes longer to write simple code than complex code. I think most "Rockstar 10X" programmers are actually just cranking out shoddy prototypes shoe horned into production while capturing all the glory for being the "first to market". Meanwhile, the rest of us are left cleaning up the mess in order to make the software manageable and understandable. We're labeled mediocre because we're actually concerned about producing software that won't require half a dozen refactor sessions in order to transform the software into simple.

The talent gap exists because quality software takes more time to develop. Programmers get rewarded and praised for accomplishments that are visible to outsiders. Time to completion is what's immediately visible, not quality. Quality only becomes apparent down the road after the praise has become a memory and the bonuses are long spent. The praise always goes to the programmer who finished first, not the one who finished well.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 5:06 UTC (Thu) by The_Barbarian (guest, #48152) [Link]

Running is easier than programming for humans, we have an evolutionary predisposition to one but not the other.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 7:42 UTC (Thu) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> Running is easier than programming for humans, we have an evolutionary predisposition to one but not the other.

Depends on the human I guess.

I always assumed the evolutionary path for "faster running, less thinking" went to horses, while "keep running to a minimum, but use the brain to analyze and plan" went to humans.

But maybe I'm just rationalizing the fact that I cannot run, and maybe the real strength that evolution has given humanity is the ability to rationalize their way to whatever conclusion they want.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 8:23 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

"keep running to a minimum, but use the brain to analyze and plan"

It's hard to see how natural selection would have selected for the ability to program computers, given that they haven't existed for very long.

The kinds of planning and analyzing selected for by evolution are not necessarily the skills needed for computer programming.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 9:27 UTC (Thu) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> The kinds of planning and analyzing selected for by evolution are not necessarily the skills needed for computer programming.

Maybe.... but I'm pretty sure that nearly every human is better at programming computers than nearly every horse.

If that isn't evolution then ....

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 11:45 UTC (Thu) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Saying that humans are better at programming than horses are because of evolution is ridiculous... it's just a side-effect of other selections, not an actual selected-for trait.

If you want to see people get really good at programming, sterilise all mediocre or worse programmers. :) Then wait a few dozen generations and you'll see the awesome power of evolutionary selection.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 22:52 UTC (Thu) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

I don't think you can realistically divide the traits of an individual or species in those which were selected for and those which weren't. They are all produced by random chance and selected from (not "by) those which happened to survive to procreate. Any "that was selected for" assessment is a post-hoc justification. Certainly a useful justification, but not a precise justification.

I would suggest that "ability to program computers" is not just a side effect but a direct consequence of other traits such as ability to think abstractly and the ability to learn. (which are my post-hoc summaries of multiple features of the human experience).

I don't think evolution is the answer to better programmers. Evolution has already done its thing. I think the answer is motivation and education.

And my personal perspective, based on little to no evidence, is that it is more a case of removing de-motivation and correcting unhelpful habits of thought than it is about adding more motivation or more thought patterns.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 11:53 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Neil, you have to be careful about distinguishing between the origin of new traits and the survival of those traits in a species.

As you correctly state, new traits are produced completely at random. However, unless those traits improve the survival chances of the individuals and improve their reproductive success, they are unlikely to persist to subsequent generations; instead they'll be swamped out my further random fluctuations.

I do not see how the ability to program computers increased our ancestors' survival or reproduction chances. So I can only conclude that the ability to program computers developed as a side-effect of some other trait that did confer an advantage.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 2, 2015 5:00 UTC (Sat) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> I do not see how the ability to program computers increased our ancestors' survival or reproduction chances.

To me, this is a bit like say that the ability of this gazelle to outrun that leopard couldn't have increased the gazelle's ancestors' survival chances because those ancestors never had to outrun that leopard (only some ancestor of the leopard).

No individual (of any species) faces exactly the same set challenges as its ancestors. Yet the survival of one set of challenges seems to correlate well with the survival of a different set of of challenges. We humans try to understand and explain that by identifying similarities between the challenges, but this is just our post-poc justification.

In a local museum there is an exhibit about computers called "The Universal Machine", for what should be obvious reasons. I would suggest that humanity is "The Universal Creature" for similar reasons. We can fly higher, swim deeper, travel faster than any other animal. We can affect our environment in untold ways, repair increasingly many injuries on both the macro and micro level.

And it is evolution that has created this ability - not by teaching us how to build aeroplanes, but by giving us a highly flexible brain. A brain that also allows us to program computers.

You might call that a "side-effect", but in that case the fact that the gazelle can outrun the leopard is just a "side-effect" of the fact that its parent was able to outrun a completely different leopard (... or did it actually outrun a completely different gazelle, who unfortunately didn't produce offspring).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 14:54 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Neil, I think you misunderstand the mechanism of natural selection. If there are no selection pressures for a certain trait, then it won't be selected for and cannot be expected to become common in the population. Your example of "side-effect" of the fact that its parent was able to outrun a completely different leopard misses the mark completely: Being able to outrun a predator has clear survival advantages, so that trait is likely to be selected for. Note that the trait is "being able to outrun a predator", not "being able to outrun Jennifer the Leopard, specifically."

When it comes to computers, I think you have it backwards. Humans evolved the ability to reason, plan and communicate (traits which indeed have significant survival advantages) so we invented the computer because that invention fit nicely with the brains that we already have as a result of natural selection.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 14:58 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Sorry, just reinforcing my last point. We didn't evolve ears and a nose where they are now to hold eyeglasses. We invented eyeglasses to fit our faces. Similarly, we invented computers to fit our brains.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 17:36 UTC (Mon) by andrel (guest, #5166) [Link]

In a finite size population, especially a small population, traits are expected to become common in the population solely due to genetic drift, with no selection pressure necessary.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 18:44 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Yes, I know about genetic drift... I have a hard time believing that human brains are the way they are because of genetic drift. That seems a bit of a stretch.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 22:07 UTC (Tue) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Quite. Note that e.g. we did not evolve the ability to do mathematics. We have exactly the same innate abilities for numerical manipulation as a vast swath of the animal kingdom: an exact counting mechanism which can instantly, reliably count up to about four or five, and another mechanism which can estimate magnitudes on an exponential scale. Both of these abilities are highly advantageous, and widespread -- even *honeybees* have them -- but there is nothing more to this ability. It can't count to ten, and it can't do more than roughly estimate the size of any large group of objects with respect to some other such group.

The ability to do mathematics comes not from this innate numerical ability but is a side-effect of a much more specifically human trait, language -- and language almost certainly did *not* evolve to enable us to do mathematics! Our ability to do mathematics is not an adaptation but an exaptation: a co-option of an existing ability into a different domain. (This, too, seems to be something humans do especially well, though it could simply be that we can't tell when other animals are doing similar feats of generalization.)

The programming talent myth

Posted May 6, 2015 3:20 UTC (Wed) by dashesy (guest, #74652) [Link]

Interesting! I think someone should do more research on dolphins then to see how good they are in math. So it is not a coincident that learning language and learning math seem to help each other.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 6, 2015 9:29 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Funnily enough, humans actually suck at the exact-counting stuff compared to at least some of our great ape cousins. Chimpanzees utterly destroy humans at speed and accuracy in exact counting.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 7, 2015 9:22 UTC (Thu) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

> Quite. Note that e.g. we did not evolve the ability to do mathematics.

That's like saying that we didn't evolve the ability to speak English or German or any other specific language. This is obviously true if you use the word "ability" to mean "knowledge" or "skill" - a thing that can be learnt or practised and developed.

But if you use "ability" to mean something encoded in your genes, realised in your brain (and other parts of your body) - then "the ability to do mathematics" is exactly the same ability as "the ability to speak English" or "the ability to design electronic circuits". Depending on how the ability is trained and educated it will manifest in different ways, but that doesn't make it a different (innate) ability.

Evolution hasn't gifted us with specific skills - it has gifted us with a general ability to develop any skill.
We are born with a brain that knows (nearly) nothing. We can't even walk!!! Maybe we can count to 4 or 5, but we have no way to communicate that counting.
But we are born with a brain that can learn nearly anything. That is the ability that underlies all the others. That is the real gift that evolution has granted us.

Yes, the human brain does seem to have a particular affinity to language. I suspect that it because the languages we use are tuned (possibly by non-biological evolution) to the particular abilities of our brains.

As I reflect on my own thinking process (admittedly an error-prone activity) is see the two key strengths are:
1/ abstraction - the ability to recognize and identify patterns, and then associate all "things" that fit the pattern together. Very importantly, this is recursive so we build patterns of patterns.
2/ memory - both short-term (which gives a sense of time and sequencing) and long-term with parallel fuzzy-matching for very effective lookup.

Words, like numbers, are abstractions. Sentences build on these to create new abstractions. Their ideal length fits with the length of our short-term memory. The precision (or lack there-of) of words aligns with the fuzzy-matching of our memory access mechanism.

These same basic tools of abstraction and memory support "natural language", "mathematical language", computer programming, mechanical design, economics, politics, religion, war, etc etc.

I accept that the ability to solve partial differential equations or to write web-apps in Python did not lead to this ability helping my ancestors to survive, but I contend that you cannot point to any one resulting skill that did any more than any other. It was the "generality of ability", not any specific ability, that let our common ancestors dominate.

In times past there were more special-purpose VLSI designs than there are today. The general purpose CPU beat them all.... with the possible exception of image rendering, but "graphic chips" may yet turn into the "even more general purpose" processor which conquers today's general purpose processors.

*We* are the general purpose processors of the animal world. We may not have the best numerical co-processor, but we don't need one!

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 1:02 UTC (Sat) by Wol (subscriber, #4433) [Link]

> Yes, the human brain does seem to have a particular affinity to language. I suspect that it because the languages we use are tuned (possibly by non-biological evolution) to the particular abilities of our brains.

The particular language is almost certainly non-biological evolution. Studies of bi-lingual children (ie two parents with different native languages) show that a child's preferred language correlates with abilities associated with that language.

The example I am thinking of is that French has strict rules as to where in a sentence, a leading or trailing consonant may "jump words". English couldn't care less. So when asked to listen for a given sound at the end of a word, a child who prefers English will spot it regardless of whether the consonant has jumped. A child who prefers French will be slower at spotting it if the consonant has jumped the "wrong" way. Note that there is no correlation whatsoever with whether the mother or father has that native language.

Cheers,
Wol

The programming talent myth

Posted May 9, 2015 23:13 UTC (Sat) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

Evolution hasn't gifted us with specific skills - it has gifted us with a general ability to develop any skill. We are born with a brain that knows (nearly) nothing. We can't even walk!!!
Ah, the blank slate hypothesis again. I don't believe it.

We are born very early in development, earlier than almost any other non-marsupial mammal: this is an unavoidable consequence of our bipedal stance, because we have to be born before our heads get too large to fit through our mothers' pelvises. Around two years pass after birth before large-scale neuron growth and streaming in the brain ends. Discount that, and, well, does a two-year-old know nearly nothing? Hardly.

And we almost certainly don't have a general ability to develop any skill, not even any cognitive skill, though it is hard to be sure of this because there are no entities known with superhuman cognitive abilities to give us an idea of what we might be missing: but there are certainly a lot of things that present-day computers can do that we can't. You can add memory to a computer, but can you learn to expand your short-term memory to 500 chunks? (No, you can only increase the average size of a chunk over time: we call that process "expertise"). Can you do learn to do mental arithmetic with the flawless, error-free efficiency, let alone speed, of a computer? No. (Human 'computers' had a far higher error rate than the ones we're used to). The list goes on.

Yes, the human brain does seem to have a particular affinity to language. I suspect that it because the languages we use are tuned (possibly by non-biological evolution) to the particular abilities of our brains.
If that were all there was to it, pigs, tortoises, and pigeons should have language. They don't (and we can be sure of that, even without knowing what the putative language might be: the informational complexity of their communications is too low).

It is known that humans have neural machinery specialized for the parsing and production of language (more specifically, for, roughly, lexemes and grammar). If we had brains optimized for learning any skill, and were using that ability to learn language, it would seem odd that the same brain regions serve to handle linguistic ability in all of us: but they do.

While it is certainly true that human language is optimized to be learned by human children, this is a selection effect: human children are the rootstock of language, almost all languages are predominantly learned by them, and almost all linguistic change comes from them. And they don't learn language in anything like the same way adults do: they can't, they don't have a language to start from. The process of learning a first language is frankly astonishing, and if it were the result of conscious deliberation -- of an 'ability to develop any skill', and in humans development of skills is the result of repetition, pattern-matching, and conscious effort -- humans would all be high-ranking geniuses.

Your just-past-newborn infants, just lying there with a brain that knows nearly nothing, not even capable of moving by dragging themselves around with their arms, are parsing phonemes out of the surrounding sound stream (also distinguishing human voices from background noise), identifying phonemes that are considered indistinguishable in the surrounding speakers' languages and equating them in their own auditory cortices (this is largely complete by the age of six months) including clustering them so that multiple languages with different such rules are correctly differentiated, then identifying and extracting words from the sound stream despite the fact that they don't know what any of the phonemes mean and the sound stream is, well, a stream, with little or no separation between the words they don't know anyway. Only then can they get down to the hard parts of grammar and vocabulary. The amazing thing to me is that they've not only done all this but also apparently derived most of the grammar of the language by perhaps the age of one and a half, the 'two-word' stage: those two words are far more often than chance the two most relevant words, in the correct order, that would be chosen from a larger grammatically correct sentence which would express what they want to say! To me that says they're thinking that sentence (or at least have its parse tree in mind, perhaps with a lot of the words missing) but just can't speak all of it yet. And I haven't even got into the grammatical parts of language acquisition, which have so many incredible feats all being accomplished simultaneously that I could go on about it all day.

Conscious thought can't begin to come close to doing this. Among other things, infants clearly aren't thinking consciously about this: if they were, they'd have no time to do anything else! It takes extensive training in field linguistics for a human adult to do this sort of thing: it's extremely hard and they are much less good at it than human infants, taking many times longer to do a much worse job (though it is true that they know what they have done, while your average six-year-old knows nothing of the native grammar she uses so effortlessly). All this stuff just screams unconscious parallel processing, and when it's happening in essentially all newborn infants we can be reasonably certain that that means that this is genetically determined. We have hardware for learning human languages. (Well, actually, we probably don't, not any more, but we did have it when we were much younger. There is a critical time window for these things, and we are both long past it.)

As I understand it, the things we are good at that other animals aren't are language, speech production (obviously tied to language), fine manipulation (i.e. toolmaking: many animals can do this to some extent, including some of our close relatives), long-distance endurance running, and things derived from those skills. That seems to me to be it for special human wossnames. It's just that language and speech production are hugely useful abilities: in the last few thousand years we've been combining them with fine manipulation (writing) to communicate beyond the bounds of a human lifetime, which is frankly amazing. If we've got that, I don't see that we need a universal learning machine in our heads that can develop any skill, if such a thing can even exist. Linguistic processing gives us everything we need.

If I'm right in this, there may well be lots of skills we intrinsically can't develop. The place to look for them is in those places that don't require language, or that require language plus some innate thing we don't have (gills, perhaps, or a lateral line sense, or the ability to detect and manipulate others' muscles from a distance like an electric eel).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 10, 2015 9:45 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Can you do learn to do mental arithmetic with the flawless, error-free efficiency, let alone speed, of a computer? No.

Hell, we can't even learn to count as fast and accurately as a chimpanzee can! Same architecture as us!

The programming talent myth

Posted May 11, 2015 6:03 UTC (Mon) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

Wow. Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

> Ah, the blank slate hypothesis again.

"blank" is more extreme than I would claim - I probably should not have hidden those "nearly"s in parentheses. We still have vestigial instinct such as fight-or-flight. But I maintain that we have much more potential ability than practical ability.

> We are born very early in development, earlier than almost any other non-marsupial mammal

Good point. I hadn't thought about that. I'll withdraw the "can't even walk" quip.

> Discount that, and, well, does a two-year-old know nearly nothing? Hardly.

Is the knowledge of a 2 year old nature or nurture? Doubtlessly both. We probably lean in different directions on the question of proportion.

> but there are certainly a lot of things that present-day computers can do that we can't

Two responses to this:
1/ A thing can be very large and still have limits. I want to emphasize how large the range of possible learned abilities is. You respond by saying there are limits. I agree there are limits, I still think the range of learnable abilities is larger than we know.

2/ But we *did* do those things. We (humanity, not you and me personally) built the tools that perform the calculations. Our brains are so versatile, they allow us to do things that our brains cannot do themselves.

> Your just-past-newborn infants ... are parsing phonemes out of the surrounding sound stream

Amazing, isn't it?!?! Processing incoming sensory information, finding patterns, and patterns in patterns, and pattern in patterns in patterns. This is fundamental to how we think and learn and it starts very early.

> To me that says they're thinking that sentence (or at least have its parse tree in mind, perhaps with a lot of the words missing) but just can't speak all of it yet.

To me, that says that several of the important concepts are forming and differentiating from other concepts. Most of it - ideas, label, structure - is still fuzzy, but a few bits are clear enough to be worth reproducing and to be recognised when they are produced. Not sure if that is the same as what you are thinking.

> Conscious thought can't begin to come close to doing this.

Oh, absolutely. Conscious thought is only one little part of thinking. Conscious thought requires (thinking aloud here...) language. It requires those labels to apply to concepts so we can store them more efficiently and manipulate them more precisely.

Other thinking still happens, but it is harder to watch or to talk about. We call it intuition or hunches or "gut feelings" or taste etc etc. Such thinking is very important but it is also very unreliable. It is very hard to introspect our hunch to check the justification.

I think many of us tend to suppress our intuition for that reason. Finding a good balance where we don't suppress our hunches, but don't trusted them too much either, is not easy.

> Linguistic processing gives us everything we need.

I wonder what exactly you mean by "linguistic processing". Earlier you seemed to differentiate mathematics from language. If your definition of "linguistic processing" maintains that differentiation, that I think there is much more to how I, at least, think and the practical value that I get from my brain than just "linguistic processing".
Even if you do include mathematics, there is the whole realm of "subconscious thought" which doesn't seem in any way linguistic yet still brings value to the individual and the species.

> plus some innate thing we don't have (gills, perhaps, or a lateral line sense,

A question for philosophers: can a blind person learn to recognize "blue"?
Obviously they never will, but would their brain be able if the sensory input was there?

There is no doubt that the range and acuity of our sensory input is critical to what we can learn about our environment - you cannot work with that you cannot perceive. That doesn't mean that the brain does not have the ability to learn some skill, just that it has not the opportunity.

I recall at University talking to a Pure Mathematics professor who claimed that felt he had a (limited) ability to "think" in 4 dimensions, because that was related to his area of interest and research and with ongoing practice he found the manipulations easier - less linguistic, more intuitive. As humans we have incredible imagination. Sometimes it can provide input to our brain beyond physical senses, and give us the opportunity gain mental abilities that are "out of this world". Sometimes there are more things "dreamt of in your philosophy" than there are "in heaven and earth, Horatio"

The programming talent myth

Posted May 11, 2015 15:05 UTC (Mon) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

> Wow. Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

I wrote it and then thought 'oh crap, this is both offtopic and pointless rambling and also teaching Neil to suck eggs'. Nice to see I was being excessively paranoid!

> We still have vestigial instinct such as fight-or-flight.

I'm firmly of the believe that 'instinct' is a nearly meaningless category. All our neurons are placed into their final resting places by a feedback loop between genes and cellular microenvironment: many of them also include a feedback loop between cell and *external* environment (including those involved in things you'd think didn't, such as vision). Mammals have almost protean developmental pathways. Some of the behaviours encoded by those neurons are not very variable after they are established (e.g. heartbeat regulation). Others are more variable. It's a continuous gradation, not a division into enumerable "instincts" and "everything else". Elephants have to learn how to use their trunks with delicacy from other elephants: does that mean it's not an instinct? Even if it does, that surely doesn't mean we could learn to do the same thing!

> Is the knowledge of a 2 year old nature or nurture? Doubtlessly both.

The division is meaningless. The neural architecture of an unborn child six months in the womb is both nature and nurture (the neurons don't develop without environmental input, some internally generated and some from things like sound leaking through the womb wall). The architecture of a week-from-conception female child is both nature and nurture (which X is inactivated in which cell? What DNA methylation patterns are established? Hugely significant for all of future development, and more or less random with some environmental influence.)

Asking 'nature or nurture' is like saying 'this computer has really good hardware! Therefore its software must be pathetic, because its hardware does everything.' In reality, having more hardware often means the software too must be more complex: in biology, being a more complex organism often means that your relationship with your environment, and the regulatory networks it controls, just get more complex. We are a long way from getting to the bottom of this. Hell, in the last few years entire new *classes* of regulatory network have been uncovered...

Clearly some things (e.g. your knowledge of your mother's name) are strongly environmentally influenced, but even they will be the result of environment acting on neurons, changing their gene expression, and feeding back. When all of memory is like this, and so are most things that aren't memory, 'nature or nurture' really means very little. The most you can ask is 'is this behaviour variable across the population, and does it vary widely in closely related individuals' -- but that doesn't mean it's 'nurture not nature', it means it's nature with complex environmental responses.

> 2/ But we *did* do those things. We (humanity, not you and me personally) built the tools that perform the calculations. Our brains are so versatile, they allow us to do things that our brains cannot do themselves.

In that case it's impossible to ask whether there are things we cannot learn: if we encounter such a thing, we'll never know it's even there since we cannot learn of its existence. Therefore you have taken the question of the range of human mental capacity outside the realm of science.

It is still clear that we can't learn *anything*: there are lots of unsolved questions in mathematics that we don't know the answer to because we have no way to work it out, or because working it out is intractable. Much of the last century of science (computer science in particular) has been the story of the discovery of new limits: I strongly suspect that such limits exist in the human mind as well, simply because there is no reason for evolution to have selected for a universal thinking machine when something simpler and likely less energy-hungry would do (energy expenditure and heat dissipation are *major* constraints on human evolution, and the brain is a huge energy suck). Why would a generalist hunter/gatherer/scavenger on the African savannah evolve a brain capable of literally anything?

(It is definitely clear that in the domain of language we do a lot via metaphors and the like, often frozen into customary forms by centuries of use to such a degree that we don't even recognise them as metaphors any more. To me, this says that we *do* have cognitive limits, but that language at least sometimes helps us end-run around them. Even there, we can't handle everything: there are a lot of not especially complex grammatically valid linguistic structures that we just can't parse because of apparent arbitrary limits. A universal thinking machine would not have a limit of at most three on the number of centre-embeddings it could handle!)

> Processing incoming sensory information, finding patterns, and patterns in patterns, and pattern in patterns in patterns. This is fundamental to how we think and learn and it starts very early.

Except we *can't do that* for anything but language, and we can't do that conciously. We find patterns, yes, but in a conscious, linear fashion: we can't listen to a massive blur of sound and do all this extraction work without thinking about it except when a very young child in the critical language-learning window. This is hardwired behaviour -- or, in the form I describe above, neurons predetermined to respond to environmental input (usually auditory) by doing this massive set of pattern-matches.

> I wonder what exactly you mean by "linguistic processing". Earlier you seemed to differentiate mathematics from language. If your definition of "linguistic processing" maintains that differentiation, that I think there is much more to how I, at least, think and the practical value that I get from my brain than just "linguistic processing".
> Even if you do include mathematics, there is the whole realm of "subconscious thought" which doesn't seem in any way linguistic yet still brings value to the individual and the species.

Mathematics has language as a prerequisite, if you will: its foundation is the concept of a number line which is not only geometric but has numbers spaced regularly along it. Those numbers are linguistic entities, and in languages spoken by cultures with advanced mathematics are recursive combinatorial entities obeying a grammar (you can build a word for any number you like). Whether mathematics has *other* prerequisites is hard to say: no other animal has this prerequisite, and as far as we know no other animal has anything like the field of mathematics. (As opposed to, say, the sort of unconscious stuff you do when catching a ball, which is mathematics *implemented by neurons* rather than mathematics you think about. Almost everything alive has that sort of mathematics encoded in it somewhere, even bacteria, but that doesn't mean they can do mathematics in the sense we mean here.)

> A question for philosophers: can a blind person learn to recognize "blue"?
> Obviously they never will, but would their brain be able if the sensory input was there?

This has been tested in people blind from birth due to cataracts: yes they can, but they don't seem to have good outcomes due to just not being able to handle the flood of visual information as easily as we can: they can see, but it's difficult to make sense of the scene as a whole and they get overwhelmed very easily. It seems likely that a lot of the visual cortex either hasn't developed properly in such people, has been excessively trimmed due to inactivity or has been repurposed for auditory purposes (very common in blind people, as well as deaf people the other way: early parts of the auditory and visual signal processing pathways use very similar algorithms and very similar patterns of neural organization, so are easy to repurpose).

Again here we see the faultiness of the term 'instinct'. Visual processing is a vastly complex pile of neural machinery carrying out at least hundreds and quite possibly thousands of distinct tasks, with all sorts of environmental feedbacks in its development (from autogenerated test patterns on the retina in the womb, through to matching of corresponding points on the retinae of both eyes for stereo-vision development in a critical window in infancy, and doubtless more that is not yet known). It is reused by all sorts of things you might not expect to use it (e.g. remembering a visual scene and visual imagination both feed into the visual cortex 'backwards', and you can even guess at what's being imagined if you spy on the right parts of the cortex; if your visual cortex is lost, you can no longer remember what colours are or what things looked like). Things that were believed to be largely hardwired, like synaesthesia, have recently been discovered to be environmentally influenced: some people with colour/letter synaesthesia have colour/letter correspondences matching those in a particular Fisher-Price plastic letter set. Even conscious thought ripples down into the early visual cortex down feedback loops: this has been tested with the Necker cube, where you can lean to flip your perception of the cube by thinking about it, and when you do about 10% of the neurons in the earliest regions of the visual cortex flip with it.

So, is vision an instinct, given that a lot of it is hardwired? Is it thousands of instincts? Is it learned, given that you can easily break quite a lot of it through environmental deprivation, that things like synaesthesia are influenced by the colours of plastic letter sets, and that conscious thought can directly affect the activity of neurons in even the most fundamental parts of the visual cortex? It is both. It is neither. It is more complex than that. (This is biology. *Everything* is "more complex than that". There's a reason a lot of old-time hackers have gone into biology now -- it satisfies their desire for crazy levels of complexity! :) )

The programming talent myth

Posted May 16, 2015 4:11 UTC (Sat) by neilbrown (subscriber, #359) [Link]

There are a few points in your very interesting treatise that I'm tempted to drill down into, but I should probably go off and do my own reading instead.

The thing that particularly stands out for me (and which I think I can make relevant) is that you present a highly reductionistic view. You focus on the details and deny (some aspects of) the big picture (there is no beauty in the Mona Lisa, only brush strokes).

I certainly agree there is no bright line between "instinctive" and "learnt" behaviours, but nor do I find the distinction completely useless. There is a continuum, and by naming the endpoints it makes it easier to talk about them.

I seem to think of brain activity at a more abstract level than you present it. This is neither right nor wrong, just different. One of the (I claim) particular abilities of the human brain is to work at different levels of abstraction. I do a little volunteer teaching and "youth group" type work. Primary school children (up to about 12 years) are *very* concrete thinkers. I try to present abstract ideas and I'm lucky when one gets through. Concrete stories are easily remembered.
Just a couple of years later, they are making the leaps to abstract implications themselves. But going beyond two or three levels seems to take focused training. Dan Myers and others talk a lot about the "abstraction ladder" which is particularly helpful for maths. http://blog.mrmeyer.com/2012/loa-the-ladder-of-abstractio...

I think that a key part of competence with software (that's where we started, isn't it?) is the ability to move up and down the abstraction levels comfortable. To know that the brain is about chemicals and about neurons and about perceptions and about ideas and about paradigms. Or to be able to think about cachelines and stack foot print, and about interface design and maintainability, and everything between and outside these points.

I believe that I was trained in this from an early age by my father who loved to play with words and mis-interpret things whenever possible. In doing so he taught me the difference between "words" and "meaning" and importantly that there *is* a difference. Each level of abstraction is valuable, but it is important to be able to tell them apart and not believe that any one is "right".

Edsger Dijkstra touched on this 27 years ago:

>By evoking the need for deep conceptual hierarchies, the automatic computer confronts us with a radically new intellectual challenge that has no precedent in our history.

https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/transcriptions/EWD10xx/EWD...

Still very relevant.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 20, 2015 10:55 UTC (Wed) by nix (subscriber, #2304) [Link]

The thing that particularly stands out for me (and which I think I can make relevant) is that you present a highly reductionistic view. You focus on the details and deny (some aspects of) the big picture (there is no beauty in the Mona Lisa, only brush strokes).
There's plenty of beauty in the Mona Lisa, but we're such a long way from understanding the neural correlates of 'beauty' that it's hard to talk about in an objective sense.
One of the (I claim) particular abilities of the human brain is to work at different levels of abstraction.
Definitely, and this also appears to be a specifically human faculty: "integrative intelligence", if you will. (Some corvids and parrots might have something like it too. No other great ape seems to. I don't know about cetaceans.)
I think that a key part of competence with software (that's where we started, isn't it?) is the ability to move up and down the abstraction levels comfortable.
Of course, a lot of programmers can't do it. Does that mean they're not human, or just not conscious entities? (Thinking of some I have known in the past, I'd believe the 'not conscious entities' part in an instant :P ). Probably neither, which likely means that in most humans this ability is something used in childhood and then discarded when large-scale learning stops.
By evoking the need for deep conceptual hierarchies, the automatic computer confronts us with a radically new intellectual challenge that has no precedent in our history.
Mathematics was doing that long before, but of course software development is a mass phenomenon in a way that mathematics never was. There are many millions of software developers now, most fairly new to the field: there have never been anywhere near that many mathematicians.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 23:26 UTC (Thu) by jwarnica (subscriber, #27492) [Link]

Evolution is just a side-effect of randomness, so any discussion about goal-oriented evolution is broken, full stop.

That said, since humans developed language, the ability to learn, and teach, the ability to construct abstract solutions to general problems followed naturally.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 11:51 UTC (Fri) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

Evolution is certainly not goal-oriented. However, a trait that does not improve survival (or more importantly, improve the chance of reproduction and survival of progeny) will certainly not be selected for.

I really cannot see how an ability to program computers could possibly have improved the chances of survival of our ancestors.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 18:22 UTC (Fri) by dlang (guest, #313) [Link]

> I really cannot see how an ability to program computers could possibly have improved the chances of survival of our ancestors.

the ability to program is a combination of the abilities to logically thing through the problem, break it down into what needs to be done, and communicate those steps unambiguously to others.

what about those abilities wouldn't help survival?

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 14:50 UTC (Mon) by dskoll (subscriber, #1630) [Link]

What you are saying is reinforcing my point: The ability to program computers is a side effect of traits that were selected for reasons having nothing whatsoever to do with computers.

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 13:14 UTC (Thu) by tzafrir (subscriber, #11501) [Link]

Off-topic: Humans are rather poor short-distance runners but are actually evolutionally adapted to long-distance runs.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 22:01 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

And not just adapted to, but extra-ordinarily well-adapted to it. Humans are wonders of the land mammal world when it comes to physical endurance. I'm not sure, but I think only dogs and wolves come anywhere near close - also often "run to exhaustion" hunters - but with enough distance we can easily exhaust them too.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 3, 2015 21:46 UTC (Sun) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Note that humans can run horses to death, and pretty much all other land mammals too.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 4:26 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

It's because we regulate temperature by sweating rather than panting. While running, quadrupeds have to link their stride with their breathing (since the ribcage also has to participate in the running motion) and eventually reach a point where their muscle fatigue cannot keep their pace moving fast enough to breathe fast enough to cool down. With sweating, cooling is not linked to breathing and coupled with bipeds not needing to link breathing with gait, overheating is not as much of an issue.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 5:10 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

And we also can carry water. A waterskin is a surprisingly ancient invention - even older than fire.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 14:10 UTC (Mon) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

Evidence, please? We see very definite use of fire by about 0.1Mya; it almost certainly had been in use for longer than that, but even without going into more, er, optimistic claims, where have you seen a waterskin older than 1e5 years? I'm not saying that it's impossible (preservation in a bog, perhaps, or indirect evidence like stoppers), but all examples I've heard about are considerably more recent...

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 23:23 UTC (Mon) by Cyberax (✭ supporter ✭, #52523) [Link]

There are water corks from about the same period.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 23:54 UTC (Mon) by viro (subscriber, #7872) [Link]

At 100Ky? Do you have a reference? The ones I've heard about were at most 50Ky and the same horizons had clear indications of fire use (bones with signs of cooking, etc.)

In any case, it's getting really off-topic for lwn, so it might be better if you replied by email...

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 10:23 UTC (Tue) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Crafted stone tools go back 1.5 Mya+. If you can make a finely-crafted hand-axe, you can make a scraper. That's enough technology to make a water bag from animal skin and connectivity tissue: scrape a piece of skin clean, grease and cure it, tie a neck together with dried connective tissues. Won't be water-tight, but it's something.

Genetic studies of human lice suggest clothing was worn at least 100 kya ago. If you can make clothes, you can definitely make waterbags.

So the tooling technology needed to make waterbags exists 1.5 Mya, and we were making more sophisticated (and probably more abstract in function, given the hot conditions) items by 100 kya. It seems like to me.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 8:24 UTC (Mon) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

Yes indeed, we're pretty well adapted to working in heat. Hence the sparse, fine hair (except on the head) and the profuse sweating. Presumably, our brains being large enough to realise we can clean animal skins and tie them up (using connective tissue of same animal, if nothing else) to make a waterbag we can carry allowed us to go even further down that evolutionary path.

We're amazing animals when it comes to endurance. Sad how so few humans exercise this ability anymore though. ;)

The programming talent myth

Posted Apr 30, 2015 15:26 UTC (Thu) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

>The tech industry is rife with sexism, racism, homophobia, and discrimination.

There are people. These problems are people problems, not pursuant to the tech industry as such.
We get the meritocracy we honestly pursue.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 1:08 UTC (Fri) by rgmoore (✭ supporter ✭, #75) [Link]

There are people. These problems are people problems, not pursuant to the tech industry as such.

Some industries try to overcome those kinds of people problems by recruiting from neglected groups, encouraging people to understand and value diversity, and punishing anti-social jerks who want to perpetuate discrimination. Other industries ignore those people problems, promote anti-social jerks, and allow the bigots to drive neglected groups out of the workforce. Which one do you think better describes the tech industry?

The programming talent myth

Posted May 1, 2015 1:13 UTC (Fri) by smitty_one_each (subscriber, #28989) [Link]

It's one thing to be in a publicly traded company, subject to laws, e.g. OSHA. Actual business models; quarterly reporting: skin in the game.
It's another to be hanging out and socializing, where unfortunate jacking around is challenging to address other than with peer pressure.
Thus, I'm not sure the comparison is a fair one.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 17:52 UTC (Mon) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link]

talent is a notion that comes from the really olden times, those times when upper-class people used to think that all sort of traits of your parents are genetically hereditary to their offspring. It was a convenient notion and helped those in power to remain in power. They even believed that if previous generations spoke a certain language, then the knowledge of that language became somehow genetically imprinted in the new generations. See this story about an experiment around 640BC, http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100351903 Even in more modern times were curious about a possible genetic imprinting of a trait. Some more recent experiments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments It appears that this talent notion has been used as a tool to dissuade others from encroaching into established privileges.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 4, 2015 18:19 UTC (Mon) by mathstuf (subscriber, #69389) [Link]

Hmm. I consider that "innate talent" rather than just "talent". There certainly is some predisposition to picking up a topic (e.g., "she has a knack for it") which can be seen with mathematical, artistic, and musical prodigies, but I think that "talent" is more of a "how good is someone at picking up something new in a field" kind of thing; nothing genetic. Maybe this is an American vs. European thing (I'm American)?

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 8:27 UTC (Tue) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link]

> I think that "talent" is more of a "how good is someone at picking up something new in a field" kind of thing; nothing genetic.

I think that, when probed, most people would take it as a genetic issue.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 5, 2015 8:14 UTC (Tue) by simosx (guest, #24338) [Link]

(i messed up the formatting in the previous post; reapplying formatting and added a bit more context) talent is a notion that comes from the really olden times, those times when upper-class people used to think that all sort of traits of your parents are genetically hereditary to their offspring. It was a convenient notion, it looked right and helped those in power to remain in power.

They even believed that if previous generations spoke a certain language, then the knowledge of that language became somehow genetically imprinted in the new generations. See this story about an experiment around 640BC, http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/oi/authority.20110803100351903

Even in more modern times were curious about a possible genetic imprinting of a trait. Some more recent experiments: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_deprivation_experiments

It appears that this talent notion has been used as a tool to dissuade others from encroaching into established privileges.

In terms of free/open-source software, it is important to get more people activated and participating in all ways possible.

The programming talent myth

Posted May 6, 2015 8:42 UTC (Wed) by NAR (subscriber, #1313) [Link]

There are talents that are hereditary. 23 out of the best 25 times for 10000m men's running are by athletes born in East Africa. Out of the 74+ male athletes who run 100m under 10 seconds, only four of them are not descended from West Africa. Traits like height, color of eye, hair, etc. are hereditary. It's an obvious (but not necessary correct) assumption that other traits like intelligence are hereditary too.

Of course, there are talents that only seem to be hereditary, but passed from generation to generation by being able to access certain resources (enough food, education, etc.).

The programming talent myth

Posted May 6, 2015 9:31 UTC (Wed) by paulj (subscriber, #341) [Link]

On the long distance running thing, it is not clear if it is genetic. My basic understanding from some people who study performance in that area is there are also potentially cultural and socio-economic factors that could explain the dominance of east Africans.

Congratulations on all the bites, Mr. Edge

Posted May 7, 2015 12:35 UTC (Thu) by ksandstr (guest, #60862) [Link]

For anyone wondering, here's the crucial "lynchpin of illogic":

>But, if you could measure programming ability somehow, its curve would look like the normal distribution.

Given such an admitted foundation of outright vacuity, the entirety of this article's thrust falls down. This is only fair given its tie-ins to the destructive populist big-lie narratives of "tech industry Problems", the earlier "not including $FEATURE is oppression"[0], and the contemporary "white men in their thirties (i.e. Babylon)". With the current media saturation of these narratives it's not surprising that self-admittedly lesser talents would buy into them hook-line-and-sinker, especially when keynote visibility is at stake.

This is after Occam's razor, mind. The less charitable reading is that of the crab bucket: mediocrities attempting to tear their betters down to elevate themselves, as though the current gurus got where they're at through politicking, advocacy, and racist-sexist name-calling; and not from diligent decades-long study and application to concrete merit.

Indeed, this is what those who've got no merit would do: claim that it is irrelevant, and that they're entitled to the same professional respect and courtesy as those who aren't outright parasites. As wiser people have said before me: they attack a straw-man of meritocracy because they know that they have no merit, but would still like to rule.

[0] this one in particular got so pervasive that it got even rms' attention; viz. https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/imperfection-isnt-oppressi...

Congratulations on all the bites, Mr. Edge

Posted May 7, 2015 13:17 UTC (Thu) by jake (editor, #205) [Link]

> Given such an admitted foundation of outright vacuity, the entirety of this article's thrust falls down.

Did you read the article or just look for things in it to support your worldview?

This is an article about a keynote given by Jacob Kaplan-Moss at PyCon. You may have arguments with what he said (it appears you do) but the *article* is simply reporting on that talk.

I saw the Reddit comments that attributed all of this to me, but, like you, they apparently didn't read the article either.

But perhaps the elite crabs are too busy to actually understand what they criticize.

sheesh!

jake

Imperfection is still imperfection.

Posted May 24, 2015 4:24 UTC (Sun) by gmatht (subscriber, #58961) [Link]

[0] seems to apply fairly well to social issues. It is easy to alienate social groups without any active malice. Just treating everyone equally isn't nearly enough to achieve equality (think "all religious groups shall receive an equal amount of pork"). And of course, avoiding pork doesn't come close to ensuring that a meal is kosher/halal. Labeling someone who has freely given everyone, including a minority groups, open source software an oppressor because they haven't done a perfect job of proactively welcoming hundreds of minority groups would be rather harsh.

On the other hand, [0] drives home that imperfection is still imperfection. Marking all equality bugs as WORKSFORME, and labeling Kaplan-Moss a parasite purely because he is looking for a fix also seems rather harsh.

I don't see anything selfish about admitting that he might not be exceptional, nor have I seen any hard evidence that he isn't actually exceptional.


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